Saving Florida's Citrus Industry: A Conversation with Attorney Steven Hall

Join us on this exciting episode as Amanda Perry Carl chats with Steven Hall, Executive Director of the Citrus Research and Field Trial ("CRAFT") Foundation.  Amanda and Steven discuss all things agricultural law in Florida. Steven shares some fascinating stories from his time as General Counsel and Deputy Commissioner at the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.  Florida's beloved and iconic citrus industry has taken some hits over the years, and you will hear on this episode how Steven, the CRAFT Foundation, and others are working to save the industry! You will not want to miss this episode!

Transcript

Speaker 00: 0:00

Welcome to the Legal Field Podcast, where we discuss legal and regulatory topics that are of critical importance to the agriculture industry. My name is Amanda Perry Carl, and I am an agricultural lawyer whose family has been farming in Florida since 1823, before Florida even became a state. I have spent almost 20 years as an attorney in the agricultural industry and have made it my mission to ensure that everyone in our incredible industry understands the legal and regulatory issues that we face so that we can keep feeding Florida, America, and the world. So if you're a farmer, rancher, or grower, if you are involved in raising cattle, sheep, poultry, goats, hogs, horses, or other livestock, if you grow fruits, vegetables, or sod, if you are involved with the aquaculture, turfgrass, or horticulture industries, if you are fighting the good fight to help our citrus industry survive, or if you just like to eat and you appreciate our ag producers, this podcast is for you. If you are interested in protecting and preserving our agricultural heritage, lands, and way of life, Well, welcome to another episode of the Legal Field Podcast. My name is Amanda Carl, and I am the host of the podcast, and we thank you for joining us here today. I'm so excited that our guest today is Steven Hall. Steven, thanks for joining us today. Hey,

Speaker 01: 1:31

great to be here.

Speaker 00: 1:32

So Steven is currently the Executive Director of CRAFT, which is the Citrus Research and Field Trial Foundation, and previously served as Deputy Commissioner and General Counsel for the Florida Department of Ag and Consumer Services. Steven, I think you served 18, 17, 18 years with the department?

Speaker 01: 1:50

Something like that, yeah.

Speaker 00: 1:51

Your entire legal career until last year. Also, on a personal note, we've known each other since high school, I think, FFA days. And we're in Professor Olexa's Ag Law program together. For anybody who listened to our episode last month, Professor Olexa was our guest last month, and Steven and I both had the honor to be in Professor Olexa's Ag Law program. I think I'm biased, but I think we were the best class to ever go through his program. We had a lot of awesome people in our class. I don't know if he would say the same thing. He wouldn't want to be that biased, but I think we were. So if you could, Steven, just give us a little bit of background on your upbringing, your ties to agriculture, how you got involved in agriculture.

Speaker 01: 2:34

Sure. First, thanks for having me, Amanda. This is really cool to be on and talk about things that I love, agriculture and the law. Well, and that's really kind of how I ended up in the roles that I did. So I grew up on a family farm outside of Malone, Florida, which, as I describe, is a mile from Alabama, seven miles from Georgia. We're up in the corner in the panhandle, and my family has been in that area for over 200 years. And so they were kind of founders of the town and have been farming there that entire time. We still are lucky enough to have the family home on the farm. And so I grew up on the farm. Growing up, it was cattle and hog and peanut operation mainly. I grew our corn and other cover crops and things like that and worked daily on the farm with my dad and grandfather and just grew up loving agriculture and the industry and the people. And the work was hard. Didn't always love it. I don't know that anybody always will say that. But in looking back, I... you know i missed i missed that piece do missed working on the farm every day um but uh it was one of those things where uh my family you know basically made the same problems my dad did to that my grandfather made my dad is hey um if you want to come back and farm we can find a way to make it work but you need to go try to find something else first and so i went to the University of Florida with Kind of had the law school in my mind. I had participated in teen court growing up and really kind of loved the idea of the law and what it could do and what it meant. And I also grew up with the idea of watching the water wars. The Apalachicola River was kind of in our backyard on the other side of town and That was really kind of the eye-opening to me of watching the impact that these big legal decisions and this government regulation of that impacted Florida and agriculture. And I thought that maybe if I worked hard, I could find a way to be part of that and be helpful. And so I went to the University of Florida, got my degree in Food and Resource Economics. free and easy, as Commissioner Putnam likes to call it. To me, it wasn't necessarily that. It was neither free nor easy, but made it through and was able to go to law school and from there.

Speaker 00: 5:09

And I think for our listeners who may not be familiar, there are native Floridians and some of us have been here for two, our families for 200 years. And to think about what our ancestors, our family came to Central Florida in 1823 and to think about what our ancestors dealt with in Florida with no air conditioning, windows open at night and everything wanting to kill you. They were some tough people.

Speaker 01: 5:32

Absolutely, they were. I have had a theory about the people that came here way back then that... Same kind of theory of the people went out west, right? They went looking for fame and fortune or for their own freedom. And you really had to be wanting to get away from something or strive out on your own to come south into Florida. And so our families that did that and had been here for that long were pretty amazing. Our family homestead house is still, my great-grandmother lived in it up until the 70s. And it has the windows that don't open and the slats in the floor are not air-conditioned. and all the things. It's basically a family museum at this point in time. So it's really cool, and it's a nice piece of heritage that I've got home very regularly, and where I am, and teaching my kids about it. We still have our old farm implements and everything in the barn for the farm, and it's a real treasure of history for the family.

Speaker 00: 6:30

That's awesome. They were tough in coming here and brave, Or I like to say sometimes maybe our family was running from something leaving South Carolina. I don't know. But they were tough. Yes. They were looking for a better life.

Speaker 01: 6:44

There are all sorts of family rumors about all that as well.

Speaker 00: 6:49

I'm sure. So I know probably what one of your highlights of college and law school were, but can you tell us maybe some of the highlights of your time in college at U.S. and then in law school as well?

Speaker 01: 7:03

Okay. Okay. So, yeah, so I'm proud to be a brother of the Alpha Gamma Rho fraternity. My father is an AGR or was an AGR as well. Um, and, uh, really there was, they never really thought about doing anything else. I kind of moved into the AGR house before I was actually initiated into, into it and, and, and paid for that in some fun ways. But, uh, it was, it was, it was really a good home for me. And I had been going there with my dad since I was, I don't know, 12 or 13 years old to the house on game days and stuff. And it really felt like home and, uh, and easily worked that walk through there. I was, uh, I was also proud to be an ambassador for the college and IFAS and enjoyed that a lot, meeting people from all parts of the college and professors, universities. I worked on campus. I had two or three jobs for the college and was busy and was in a bunch of other different clubs and things that were all important. able to make me, you know, have openings and meet different people and be around people and just enjoyed my time on campus. It was about two and a half years, I think. I started, I went to my first two years at Chipola College, which is the junior college back home, and then transferred into UF and enjoyed my time there and was really thankful for all the experiences I had and then was ready to go to law school and I got my the best offer from Cumberland, which is at Samford University, and had several different offers, and some of the places were for better or worse and closer to home, but this one was closer to home. I was just so happened that my farm is halfway between Birmingham, which is where Samford is, and Gainesville. And it was basically the same distance either way. And so I went to Cumberland. And while I was at Cumberland, I was encouraged and had the opportunity to get a joint master's degree. So I have my master's in environmental management and my law degree there. And I did that, was really thinking about because by then, after taking Dr. Olexa's agricultural law minor, I was pretty set on coming back to Florida and doing agricultural law somewhere. I wasn't exactly sure where when I started that. But with food and resource economics, I had a good ag business background and an economic understanding of how the world worked. And being in law school, what I realized, what I was doing, what I was working for on behalf of farmers, I knew that I needed to get more of a science background. And so the master's in environmental management was a hard science. All the hard sciences that I would end up needing and use in my life and my career so far to help me get that understanding. So my master's degree while in law school was a little bit crazy. It was a law school load plus doing master's classes at night. But I didn't have anything else to do other than study and work. So it was a good opportunity and it paid off in the long run. So I was proud to be a Cumberland alum. I'm actually get to... They've started an advisory group for their joint, their master's and law degree program. The board's just been formed. They're going to be on, they asked me to serve on the boards. I'm excited to do that. And to me, and when I was hiring lawyers, it worked out for me, but when I was hiring lawyers, I was always looking for the attorneys who were well-branded and had that, especially when I was at the department, because understanding that the four-department agriculture is really a science-based agency. with all the different things we do and so having people that are well-rounded and well-read and have at least a working understanding of how to spell science is very helpful for those lawyers because the people we're working with are making scientific decisions and they need to know the law but also to be able to translate a scientist. As I say, sometimes I I'm lucky enough to be married to a veterinarian who is, so is the scientist every day. So I speak science very fluently because of that, but also working with our, our, our PhDs and our, our, you know, different people with that hard sciences background that, that, that speak that because scientists speak differently and think differently than lawyers do where we live in a world of grace. They are very much in the world of black and white, either it is or it isn't. And so being able to translate that a lot of times paid off over the course of my career several times.

Speaker 00: 11:41

And I think that's a lot of times hard to find is lawyers with that science background. I've had quite a few high school and college age students who are interested in being ag lawyers recently reach out and ask about some of the things they should do to prepare for that. And I think that's one thing that's really important and differentiates you as well and prepares you a little bit more. So I think that advice is really good for anybody who may be listening. Who's younger and thinking about that career path to help them figure out how to strategize and make the best moves in college. Absolutely.

Speaker 01: 12:11

And just being well-rounded and just being well-rounded to having that understanding is going to help you in your life. It's going to help you be a better attorney. It's going to, cause you're, cause you're not going to be, um, I'm not sure I've ever met somebody who's a political scientist. in the real world, right? I mean, there's probably a few out there and they probably live here in Tallahassee. They're lobbying or doing things like that. But the vast majority of people you're going to be working for, especially in the agriculture world, they're out there making decisions every day. As farmers, you know, us farmers wear, you know, lots of different hats. And they're weathermen, they're scientists, they're workers, they're doing all the different things, they're engineers. And being able to have some sort of understanding background if you're willing to stay in this, in that in that world and work for those people, helping to understand where they're coming from at least and having been exposed to it at least some point in time in your life, I think just makes you a better lawyer.

Speaker 00: 13:03

Absolutely. And the business side of it too, just really understanding the inner workings of the business. I think that's critical. Yep. So how did you then end up getting the job at the Department of Ag and deciding that that's what you want to then go do? Where you spent decades, which is great.

Speaker 01: 13:19

Yeah. So, uh, There were no agriculture lawyers when I was in law school. There was nobody to model after. You had people like Scotty Butler, who was a giant in the legal world, but he was the longtime general counsel of Florida Farm Bureau. and there was one or two others who if you did a rudimentary google search okay so guys this was 25 years ago now and uh well and there was just nobody to model and the people that had that there was nobody saying agricultural law on their website it was if they were doing it they were doing land use and they were doing wills and trusts and they were working for farmers but there was no such thing as an agricultural law you know practice um So I went looking for a place that I could get some exposure and find out to that. And my search really led me to the Department of Agriculture. And I had some connections at USDA. And I was thinking, do I want to try to work in D.C.? And kind of went down that route and realized that that was too far from home. Wanted to be close to my family. Tiffany and I were friends. very serious and knew she wanted it. Well, she was in vet school by then and was wanting to stay in Florida and practice. And I was like, no, that's not the, that's not the route I've had ever towards my career, several opportunities to go to DC. And I've just, I never took the, I never took the plunge to do that. It just, uh, the Tallahassee rat race was enough for me. And, um, and so anyway, back on, on track, I, uh, found the department. I figured out who the general counsel was and commissioner Bronson was the commissioner at the time. And I got my resume to a family friend in the commissioner's office. And it got to miss Rhodes, who was the chief of staff. And she sent it to the, uh, general counsel who, uh, called me cold, called me one day and basically said, who are you? And how did your resume end up on my desk? His name was Richard Trichler and who, who, uh, became a friend of mine and I worked, eventually worked for, and I told him that, you know, where I was and what I was doing. And I said, Hey, I think I want to do an internship at the department general, department general counsel's office. And he said, I don't have an intern. I don't have any interns and we don't have an internship program. And I said, well, I don't need to be paid. I have a friend that'll let me sleep on his couch until I say, I just want to come work here. I think I want to do agricultural law. And, uh, The conversation went on, and I remember him saying something to the effect of, I'm not going to be able to get rid of you, am I? And I said, I really would like to work at the department. And he said, I'll call you back. And so three days went by, and he called me back, and he said, okay, I'm not going to pay you anything, but if you show up by this date, we'll see what we can do. And so I did show up on the day. at the legal suite of the general counsel in the Mayo building at the department and was there for almost 20 years from that day. Your persistence. It did. You got rid of me. It did. And I proved my worth, I think, as an intern. And it was one of those deals where it was very clearly I was going to go back to law school at the end of the summer And uh, but they wanted me to they let me they let me work as much as I wanted to and I work five days a week Um, you know 10 10 hour days, you know 7 :30 to whenever whenever the general counsel or whoever one attorney I was working with went home. I stayed. One of those deals because again, I was sleeping on my buddy's couch. So I wasn't in a hurry to go home and uh, and then uh At the end of the summer they were like, hey, what are you doing for Christmas? and Um, I was like, well, I actually, I was just going to go to the farm and hang out. And they were like, well, would you like to work? And so I ended up, they offered me to come back. So I came out and what I quickly realized was, I think that year Christmas was in the middle of the work week. And all the attorneys wanted to be off for, and be on vacation for Christmas. So they needed somebody to man, be in the office and man the phones. Yeah. Yeah, I came back and worked over like a month over the holidays there, and they all left Christmas. And I only went home for Christmas Day that year, or maybe we had Christmas Eve and Christmas Eve, something like that. But I worked the rest of the week, and they kind of left me. And in charge of things that was his intern there to answer the phone and do whatever. And I remember they specifically said, if anything goes wrong, call John Costigan, who was the deputy general counsel at the time. And I don't know if for anybody who's ever worked at the department who may be listening to this, there's always some sort of equine emergency every year at Christmas because that's when all the horses are coming south. Well, sure enough, there was a, I forget what it was, there was some disease outbreak going on and the state veterinarian called the legal office at the time and said, hey, this thing is happening. What do I do? And I'm the legal intern and sitting there thinking oh my gosh what do you do and I said I don't know let me call you back and so i read the statute I looked at it and I said okay this is what I do and then I was like I was like I need to call somebody and get somebody to tell me that I'm right and so I called on and I was like hey this is what's going on this is what I think is right he said yeah that sounds good tell him that and so that's what I did and so I proved my worth there and I um so I started as an intern and I never left the payroll till the day I turned in my uh resignation uh last year when I left the department so

Speaker 00: 19:14

that's an awesome career story of perseverance getting your foot in the door and sometimes you don't take no for an answer and then you end up with nearly two decade career

Speaker 01: 19:24

And some really good people taking chances on me. And seeing that I had interest in some people that didn't know me or didn't know me or my family or anything. There was just this kid who came from a farming background that the department has historically taken care of and given opportunities to. And I just like to think I took advantage of that because the people gave me those opportunities.

Speaker 00: 19:50

And staying at the department for almost 20 years, is really for most people, if you know or don't know this, it's kind of unheard of to stay as an attorney in a government agency for that long. I shouldn't say unheard of, but it's not that common to stay that long. What would you say were the things that kept you there? Was it the people? Was it the work you were doing? Was it a combination of all of that? Because it's a thankless job a lot of times to be an attorney in a government agency. It's hard work. Public eyes are always on you. So what do you think it was that kept you there?

Speaker 01: 20:25

I loved the work first. So it was fulfilling. I was never somebody who I ever really thought I was going to go do private practice. It was just not what motivated me. You're at a state agency. Nobody that works there does it for that. My... family so it might come from a family of farmers and my mother was a school teacher and principal so public service runs throughout my family on both sides of it as well and so falling into the department was probably always kind of destined for me because that's just how I was also big in leadership development through FFA and through HOBE another organization I spent a lot of time volunteering and working with and work and just being committed to that. It is very rare to be at an agency that long, although if it happens often, it happens a lot at the department because you get an expertise or kind of grew up in the department, as some of us have said, who get there through the leadership and a lot of homegrown talent. It's very rare, though, for because most attorneys in Tallahassee are jumping either in and out of private practice or they're getting their feet wet and then go into private practice because, frankly, that's where student loans and funds and everything, that's where it drives people. Or in some instances, they get offers at another agency for a couple of thousand dollars more and they make the jump because that's where the salaries take you. But to me, I was never... I don't want this to sound arrogant or anything else, but I did not come to work for the state government. I guess, given my background, I was probably, I may have always been kind of be the deputy general counsel of the department, which thankful that I had the opportunity to do for almost six years for commissioners and which was. Very, very rare. Most general counsel is absolutely a senior political appointed position. And to do that for multiple commissioners is very rare. And I was lucky enough to do that. And I think that's because all the commissioners saw that I had the background and the ability to do that and provide them good guidance. And I'm thankful for that, your staff, and seeing that as well.

Speaker 00: 22:59

And so I want to talk a little bit about some of the things you did while you were at the department. One of those, the next guest we're going to have on the podcast next month is Ben Moore from The Ugly Company. And they do a lot of stuff in food waste and they're doing a lot of awesome work in taking food waste and making really cool food products. But we both know there's a lot of liability in a lot of states that scares people away or potential liability that scares companies away from getting into the food waste space. I know while you were at the department, You guys had done a lot of work in terms of food waste and food donations. Could you talk about that a little bit and some of the things that you did to help improve those circumstances in the state of Florida for people who were trying to help eliminate food waste?

Speaker 01: 23:45

So I take very little and was just part of the group that did this. And it was there were major corporations in the state who came to the department and said, hey, we we have food. all this food that is being prepared food that is going to waste. And it's one of those deals where we would like to be able to do something with it. We're just, we're just throwing this away and we'd like to see it. And so, uh, our division of food safety, who is overseas food safety and the preparation and sale, um, outside of restaurants and hotels, which are done by other agencies, really went to work and to try to figure out a way to do that. And it really necessarily wasn't a legal matter. It was a regulatory matter, and it was an opportunity to find a way to partner to try to get government out of the way and doing it in a safe way. And I don't think they're necessarily done with all the work they did. They were starting that when I was leaving the department, but they're continuing to work on that. And I think that was one of the things that I was proud of from my time at the department. And it was a history of things. The worst answer I would ever get was when I would ask, well, why do we do something this way? It was, well, we've always done it that way, right? Well, that's... That's not an acceptable answer. It was always, okay, well, either it's because it's convenient for us to do it that way, the law requires us to do it that way, or there's some reason that it was put in place that technology or time has changed and maybe we can do it better. And so that was always a driver of me. One of the things I did is started as an intern. They put me in charge of agency rulemaking. And so there was a time when, uh for many years uh where i was over i was in charge of all the agency's rules and I was the the the most agencies office general counsel oversees agencies rule making the commissioner or their agency head has to do final off but the lawyers are the ones who were working with staff to do that and i was able to build a um actually started that first summer I was at the department I was able to build the infrastructure in the department where all the rules flowed through the office general counsel for the attorneys and eventually the general counsel reviewed and signed off before it was presented to the commissioner's office and the commissioner for approval at the different stages that required that. And so I spent about 12 years of my time at the department as the agency that we call the agency rulemaking coordinator and overseeing that. And so working through, there was a time where every rule that was on the books for the department had my fingerprints on it. And whether it was from our division of licensing and concealed weapons permitting processes and things around that, or which that's mainly statutory, but thinking through the different licenses that They do all the way through our food safety divisions to our traditional ag divisions, office of ag water policy, consumer services. I either wrote or helped write or rewrite those rules. And so we did a lot of those questions, just like we did coming back to your question about the food waste of whenever these rules came before us, when my specific missions, what I wanted to do was, is it clear? Is it concise? And is it within the statutory constraints and authority given to the department? And then finally, doesn't make sense why are we doing it this way is it and do we have to do it and how burdensome is is it on the people that have to comply with it can they can can some farmer standing in his field or some business owner that has to comply with his rule read it understand by reading it exactly what they have to do and comply with it. And so that they don't have to go call somebody or ask somebody or hire a lawyer or anybody else to do, to help them read it and understand what they need to do. And so I was proud of that work that we did, um, working on that, cleaning that up. Agency rules get a, they get a bad rap sometime. And, um, my friends in the legislature will sometimes say that, you know, agencies over-regulate. I agree. A lot of agencies do that, but also no agency rule exists, uh, without there's some law in the book saying that the legislature wrote says, hey, agency, go write this rule. That's just not how that's how the law works in Florida. So there is a law out there that says the agency has the ability to go do this. And so I figured the thing we could do at the department for the people that we are working with on a daily basis was at least write it in a way that they could understand it and write it in a way that is as least burdensome to them as it could be. Sometimes they had some hoops that had jumped through because of the law and the statute that required that rule to be existing. But the least we could do was write it in a way that they could understand it. And so I'm proud of the work we did for there.

Speaker 00: 28:37

Which I think is so important. As much as my business thrives on some of that. It's important for people, for individuals, for farmers, for property owners, for residents, business owners, to be able to read clear and concise rules and understand them without having to hire attorneys. I know I would be out of business, but at the same time, it's important for our business owners, our property owners, our individuals, our residents of the state to have that. So it's very important when we have folks in government who are doing things the right way And it's very appreciated by the resident. Is there anything else you want to share about your time with the department before we move on to your current role? Any projects that you're the most proud of? Anything that happened during your tenure that you'd like to share? S

Speaker 01: 29:29

yeah. So I'd say a couple of things. I got to first, I want to say, because they're probably the most likely people to listen to this. I want to say how proud I am of the team I was able to assemble. at the team of attorneys that I got to work with, I was able to hire some really good people and work with them on a daily basis. They know who they are and were hardworking and dedicated. What I always told people in interviews was I think there are three types of lawyers. I think there are yes attorneys who say yes whenever the client asks because They get paid to do that and it keeps the client happy and that's good. And then there are the no attorneys who just say no to everything the client asks for because that keeps them safe and it's an easy answer. And the lawyer says no, most people take it as that and go on. But the client never grows or learns or has the opportunity to do anything. And so what I always tried to be in what I do the people I tried to hire, whatever, what I call the no, but attorneys, I wanted the attorneys that the, because they're sometimes in a lawyer's job or your, our job is to tell the client, no, that there, no, you can't do it the way, the way you've asked me to do it, but let's find a way to accomplish. What is your goal? And let's find a way to accomplish it. So being the no, but attorney is what I, I called myself and, and, and tried to, uh, And tried to pride myself on hiring people. And I think we were able to do that for quite a few years and put together a really good team of attorneys. I, if, if we had been a standalone law firm, I would have put us up against any law firm of any size with the people that I was able to, cause they were dedicated and they were good and they were smart and they worked hard. And, um, and so I was proud, I'm proud of that. I'm also on the program areas. I was thinking about your question on this, and I'd say there are a few that I kind of had the opportunity to be about. Talk about the agency rulemaking, and that's very in the weeds for lawyers and agency lawyers specifically. We only understand why I think that's a cool thing. But there were some programs I was able to be in and around on. I saw the growth and evolution of our Office of Agriculture Water Policy, which going back to where I started was one of the really big reasons why I wanted to be at the department. and learn about that and work in that area. And I was able to be their program attorney for a few years and really work on that and help them develop our best management practices and watch it evolve and grow and work in that area and just understanding the impact that that has today, even down to things like our agricultural statutes and the agritourism conferences and see that grow, work in that area and be in the rooms and help write some of those laws that are on the books and protecting those different parts of industry and why our agricultural BMPs have grown beyond just water quality and water quantity standards and why they're so important to pretty much everything that happens in agriculture in Florida these days. I also had a ground floor seat at the table working on our Rural and Family Lands Program. And it was until Commissioner Simpson came along, it was... underfunded and had all the potential and he has really put a lot of money into it and has grown and it is doing amazing things because i like everybody else native Florida and just weep for the days where We weren't growing houses on some of our most productive land and we could grow anything on them, but a lot of it's turned into those solar, those rooftops now or solar farms. And while I understand why that's inevitable, I miss those. And so keeping some of that rural and family lands, some of our agricultural lands in our production agriculture, I think is important because I think, again, like Commissioner Simpson says, agriculture in Florida is a national security issue. We have the ability here to feed not only everybody in our state, but the rest of the country with the production land that we have and do it in times of year where nobody else can do it. And so I think that's so important that we continue to preserve that. I had a very unique opportunity, and it's never quite turned into what I think some people had hoped it would be. But, uh, in, uh, I was commissioner Bronson hired me and I grew up under his chief of staff, his commissioner Rhodes and Richard Trichler, the general and John Costigan, the one I talked about. But then as they were leaving and transitioning out of the agency, uh, when commissioner Putnam came in, uh, who I had, uh, obviously as a fellow AGR and had known for many years, he kept me on board as an attorney. And I worked under our general counsel, Lorena Hawley. And then when John and Lorena were leaving the department in the last year or two of Commissioner Putnam's term for different reasons and other great opportunities, he took a chance on me. He and Mike Joyner, who I should absolutely... talk about as well, who was the commissioner, took a chance on me and hired me to be the general counsel. And I went from a senior attorney to a deputy commissioner, or excuse me, a deputy general counsel, and then general counsel in all about six months. And so it was after being around and being the same title for like 10 plus years, I was very quickly promoted up the ranks. And they took the chance on me and believed in me. And really, Commissioner Putnam and Mike did that for me and put me in a position. And so when they were leaving and Commissioner Fried was coming in, the 2018 farm bill had just passed and in that farm bill uh allowed for the cultivation of hemp by states and then the regulation of that and obviously seeing commissioner freed running for office and then seeing her being elected it was very clear to me what her first priorities was and so uh uh Mike and everything, we were able, allowed me to try to kind of pull the team together so that we could hit the ground running when she got in the door. And when she got there, uh, we basically had a framework of a plan in place about how we could, uh, build a regulatory program around hemp and what statutes we would need. And so we were able to present that to her team when they got on the ground and they liked it. And we were able to, um, build a program from scratch, which is at most agencies is very rare. And so, uh, whether it was whether it's hemp or not and it was never intended to be the the the thing that has turned into and the department has cracked down really hard on the on the abuse of the the attracted to children if the nuisances and stuff that have come along since that uh but the actual growing and the cultivation of hemp that we did uh the program we end up writing uh getting passed in the law and then adopting and rules in record time just to help that industry stand up and uh exist uh we were able to do and do in a way that everybody, I think generally around that industry that wanted to be a part of that industry thought was open and transparent and accessible to them and that there were nobody, there was no, we didn't pick winners and losers and we did it in a way. And then attorneys will also understand that building something from scratch like that is unusual. You don't get to build it. You don't get to build anything. And we were able to put together a a group of people from across the agency that touch, at one point in time, seven different parts of the agencies and have a set of rules and everything all come online at nearly the same time. And what ended up happening is our regulations and our framework that we adopted in Florida, USDA liked so much, they essentially copied and pasted and it became the national standards. And so that was because of a lot of hard work by a lot of people who really put... we had to do a lot of, uh, groundbreaking science and understanding and researching to understand what we're doing. Cause we were regulating entirely new crop and putting all that together. And so to be able to be a part of that and lead that effort, I think was, was really cool. And so, um, um, those would be the things that are top of my head that I think, and then, and then just being with the people at the department and make an impact and being friends with those people and just learning as much as I did. I think that was my main takeaways. So.

Speaker 00: 37:50

And that Hemp program is, was groundbreaking and it, kind of another interesting thing about ag and ag law. So I think so often, and I get asked this question a lot too, well, what is ag law and what do you do? And kind of at that point, it's a little bit of everything. And sometimes it's the unexpected and it's the new and it's the groundbreaking. And a lot of people don't often think about hemp as agriculture, but that's agriculture. And it covers so many different things that I think a lot of folks don't think about. It's expansive. So now you've moved into citrus. primarily doing citrus working for CRAFT. And I know for native Floridians, for people outside of Florida, everyone around the country and the world thinks of Florida and they think of citrus. They also think of Florida man, but we don't want them to think of Florida man. We want them to think of the good things, not Florida man. But we know our citrus industry has been in danger for a while between canker and greening and development. You've seen so many, especially to the north, you know, north central Florida, central Florida over my childhood, We slowly watched all of that. And then in adulthood, move farther south. So can you tell us a little bit about what CRAFT is doing? Because I think it's really important to a lot of people to try to save our citrus industry. And people want to smell the orange blossoms when they drive. That smell is intoxicating. People have never smelled it. It's like nothing you've ever smelled before.

Speaker 01: 39:12

Yeah, So... The citrus industry is the iconic agriculture industry in the state. It is our heritage in a lot of ways. It was one of the first crops ever cultivated in the state. When the Spanish explorers got off the boat in St. Augustine, obviously they brought citrus with them for all the health benefits and everything. But one of the first things they did was they planted citrus right there off the shores. It has been here since the founding of Florida, modern Florida. And it is one of those are part of the industry that has moved and evolved. It started in North Florida and then the freezes in the early part of the 1900s sent it south. And then citrus diseases have really kind of taken over and impacted it, especially over my course of my career, starting in the early 2000s and into that, starting with citrus canker and then citrus greening. When I was at the department, one of my roles was working on our citrus canker litigation. As the newbie attorney and the new guy in low man on the totem pole, I did a lot of the grunt work and all the research and working with our in-house counsel and our outside counsel and managing them and doing depositions and trying that because the department was being defended for its actions trying to eradicate cankers. citrus canker and we went we had i think i was part of three different cases that went all the way to the state supreme court and we there was even some appeals the u.s supreme court that ever had actually got hurt and upheld but um being around that uh i didn't get to grow up i was to grow up on a cattle and peanut farm in the panhandle but we had satsuma trees and things like that but i was never part of production citrus But I grew up, especially at college, grew up with a lot of guys and girls who did grow up in that industry and knew their love and how they farmed was differently. So over my career, I've watched that industry, which was at its peak in the late 1990s, lose 95% of its production. over this year. And I think the good news is, according to the statistics that just released over the last couple of weeks, we've kind of hit a final plateau. I don't know how much lower we've been. Maybe we're finally at rock bottom. We had, there were some hope with last year that production would have picked up, but then we were hit by, the state was hit by three storms, two of which severely impacted the heart of the citrus producing area now. And so we kind of, I think there's a, we'll never know what it could have been If maybe we have potentially seen an increase this year, but for the storms, but we didn't. And so we're living with that reality. So Matt Joyner, who is the executive director of the Florida Citrus Mutual, and I worked together under Commissioner Putnam. And, uh, a couple in 2019, he came and was at a part of the meeting at the, at the commissioner's office where they were asking, Hey, we have this idea about, we want to do this, this research with the growers and they, I got pulled into the meeting and basically said, I would, and they said, this is what we want to do. And I said, well, what I would do is I'd create a direct support organization of the department. It's a standalone nonprofit. It's outside of the agency. So it's easier for contracting directly with the growers. And there's a lot of benefits of that. And you can follow your funding through that. And they said, that's a great idea. Go do that. And so I actually signed the creation documents as the department's general counsel to create the citrus research and field trial foundation, which is, Then five years later, Matt comes back to me on behalf of the board who was seeking a new executive director and came to me and said, hey, is there ever, are you interested? Commissioner Simpson and Kathy had, after almost six years of being general counsel and working 10, 12 hour days, I was exhausted. They had came to me and gave me the opportunity to serve as an assistant deputy commissioner. And I had a really enjoyed that, um, in a completely different role instead of working with, it's a colleague and the attorney for the division directors. I was now supervising some of these people and working with our DSOs and like the state, the fair board and doing some really cool, fun things with that. And, uh, Matt came along and it's like, Hey, would you ever be interested? And I had kind of really gotten to the point where I'd climbed as high as I was ever going to get at the, at the department as far as, you know, job wise. Yeah. And as the kids were getting older, I've got, uh, I have two kids, a boy and a girl who were both in elementary school and I had been to very few school events. And, uh, I was getting to the point where I was, I was kind of thinking around that maybe I should focus more on myself and my family a little bit more than my career. And, uh. there's one, I think it was one of those God things where he kind of opened the door for me that I needed. And, uh, Matt showed up and was like, why are you interested? And I'm like, you know what? Let's have a conversation. Next thing I know, I'm meeting with the chair of the board of the CRAFT program and they're offering me the job. And I said, yes. And so after almost 20 years at the department, I, as an intern all the way through all those adventures we talked about, I was able to, in full circle, come back and now lead the organization I signed the creation documents for about five years earlier, never understanding or having any conception that that was ever going to be a possibility. And so the mission of the CRAFT program is to take and do applied research. We have these brilliant scientists from especially University of Florida and IFAS and other parts of the country and USDA who are doing this amazing research to try to revitalize the citrus industry. It's been absolutely ravaged by the citrus greening diseases and the Asian psyllid that spreads it. And it's that which is a bacterium, which is a vascular disease of the citrus tree. Basically, when it gets infected, the citrus tree gets infected it cannot uptake the nutrients from its root to the rest of the tree and it slowly almost suffocates and dies uh unlike canker uh citrus greening will kill the tree canker will just make it was just a blight on the fruit and uh and so the idea behind the CRAFT program is to take that research that these brilliant scientists are doing in the public and private labs and put it in fields of commercial groves, figure out what actually works. So we're doing applied research. We're taking these ideas that work in a lab setting, and we're actually putting them in the groves, and we're finding out what works and what doesn't work under these real-world conditions that the growers are trying to grow citrus crops in on a daily basis. And so to be able to do that and to work with these growers again on a one-on-one basis and to kind of take all my elements of my career, my legal background, because we're doing contracts and we're having to make decisions about what works and what doesn't, to have my science background and my master's degree that we talked about earlier, to be able to understand and once again speak science and talk to these researchers and understanding what they're actually trying to accomplish and making sure that we're setting up project experimental designs, um, uh, with the growers that actually will give us good data to, and to understand the data that we're getting back and manage it and talk to our data scientists that we've hired to work with us to do this has kind of brought as kind of a culmination of all my career to do this. And so I was excited when I got the opportunity to do it. I've been in the job about a year now, and it has really has been a do, and we're starting to see some positive results. Again, the industry, uh, through CRAFT as a part of that has come a long way and we've got some treatments and some therapies that are working. We've got some exciting new varieties that are coming through the pipeline. There's a couple companies that have some gene edited trees that are close to getting final federal approval that I think the growers are going to be able to put in the ground soon. And so having to dive into what is CRISPR and how does it work and understand that so that we can bring it into the program. It's been a really exciting and a really neat opportunity and just another evolution of that and leading a board and working again directly with the growers has been really, really fun challenging, but in a good way.

Speaker 00: 47:38

You're telling our listeners there's hope. There's hope for the citrus industry and you guys are working hard on that. It's really cool to see all the time and energy and money and dedication that CRAFT is putting into this to revitalize this important and crucial industry that really is the backbone of Florida.

Speaker 01: 47:59

So absolutely there. So I had a, I love my time at the department. Again, I spent almost 20 years there and was not looking to leave. But when I was talking to the team and the board about what they were looking for and what they were as an executive director and really doing and doing the research and being growing up around the department and knowing our staff and everything, I absolutely believe in the future of the Florida citrus industry. It will be here. There will always be. Will it be what we were in the high time of the citrus barrens? Maybe never get back there, especially with some of the land that's gone to development already and into other crops. Yeah. But it absolutely will continue to be a backbone. The Florida citrus industry is still, even today with the production loss we have, a $7 billion economic impact to the state of Florida. There's so much infrastructure from the growers to the caretakers to the processors and the packing houses and all the people and the jobs and the economic engines and the support businesses that and are working through that. It still is for a large majority of the state. The economic backbone is so many towns in the center and southern parts of the state. And from over on the east coast, along the river, as they call it, and the grapefruit areas into the heart of the state and Imperial Polk County because they get upset if you don't use the word Imperial in front of it. They're in the heart of the citrus industry down in the southwest corner of the state and even up in pockets in the northeast and center of the state and the satsuma growers in the panhandle. It's everywhere and that economic engine that keeps growing and it's there and the growers that are in it are in it for the long haul. All the people who were trying to hold on or whatever else they they've gotten out through the hard times or whatever and they got and the guys and gals that are in it now those growers they're serious about it and it's their legacy and they're going to continue and you know what it does other than the economic benefit of it there where these citrus growers are they are in the areas that are being developed so quickly everybody talks about the ALICO uh decision that was announced early this year which was a fun and kind of scary for a lot of the industry. If, if ALECO, somebody that, that big can't do it, can't, how can anybody else stay in it? Well, that company has its own history and everybody can look at that and understand their history and what they were formed to do and why what they did was probably inevitable. But still, they still, even after what they've had announced that they're going to sell, they're still going to cape 30,000 acres of citrus and they're leasing out more of the land. So they're not getting out of the citrus industry. Their, their, their business is just evolving.

Unknown: 50:36

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 50:37

These acres are where these trees are, are our wildlife corridor. They are so important for what I love personally about Florida is in our history, our diversity, our demographic diversity, our ecological diversity, our agricultural diversity. We're unlike any other state in the map and almost any other place in the world in what we can do here in Florida. And, and, Thank you. Saving the citrus industry, I believe we're trying to save the heart of Florida. The orange is on this license plate. It is the iconic Florida agricultural crop. And that's why I'm thankful for Senate President Ben Albritton, who is a citrus grower himself, and his leadership and his vision, and Commissioner Wilton Simpson, and his leadership this time in the Senate now as Commissioner, to invest it. They have this year, and the Florida Legislature has invested $100 million in the CRAFT program, which to this point has had some significant funding over time, but that is... three times the greatest amount of funding our CRAFT program had received before. And we are planning to, in just a few days, before you came on, I was putting the finishing touches on our program guidelines. We're in a few days going to announce our funding guidelines to invest that money into the citrus industry. And if things go according to plan, the goal is to plant 2 million citrus trees or 10,000 acres of citrus with this funding. And it's going to do more than that, but that's the minimum goal. And we're going to find ways to continue to tree our existing trees with therapies that we know that are working. And we're going to invest in growing some of these emerging varieties crops that are coming through that are these gene edited trees and some of these varieties that they found that are just a beautiful tree that's a hybrid of different scions and everything that are just has appeared to be resistant completely to greening because nature always finds a way and how do we learn from and invest in that and so we're going to take that investment that the leadership and the legislature and the state of Florida and their tax dollars are investing in it in their CRAFT program we're going to put it to good work and we're going to find a way forward for this and we're going to give the growers the tools that they need to do to survive and protect our heritage in our state so

Speaker 00: 53:39

I think so many people are dealing with flooding issues and people are saddened about the ecological diversity we lose when we have so much development. And there are a lot of it just being our heritage, like you said, and our license plates. And that's Florida. For so many of us, our citrus industry really is the backbone. So the work that you guys are doing is incredible. I hate to wrap this up because we could talk all day long about all things related to ag, ag law, citrus. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast today and sharing all of your knowledge, your experience with us.

Speaker 01: 54:12

It's a pleasure to be here. Happy to do it. Good luck with the podcast. You're going to talk to some amazing folks. I'm just honored that you thought to include me.

Speaker 00: 54:21

Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Legal Field Podcast. For more content, please visit the Facebook page of Florida Ag Law or go to floridaaglaw.com and join us next time on the Legal Field Podcast to see what's growing on.